VATSIM Scandinavia ATC Training Director

[Andreas Dermitzakis]

6 hours ago, Magnus Gustafsson said:

@Juha Holopainen you most probably understand that this situation is rather overwhelming regarding information and communication all over the place. I still not have had the time to find out what in our constitution is out of line with various VATSIM regulations. I haven´t clearly been presented with any type of VATSIM regulation paragraph that our way of electing executive staff position, so it´s in my mind an clear "ideological" thought Founders and Board of Governors have and that thought is so strong that they will overrun our constitution.

Our constitution was reviewed and amended  by VATEUD as required january-february this year, after VATSIM Scandinavia members had accepted the proposal for amendment, to get it totally inline with VATSIM regulations.

I do not have that information or I haven´t been bright enough to find out. @Andreas Dermitzakis or @Florian Harms maybe can inform about that?!

Very well said!

Magnus

First of all, apologies for the late reply but I am not at home till Monday. In regards of the elections, the only limiting factor that is introduced will be for the positions in the Training Department and the IT. As I've mentioned above the critical positions that require a selection instead of an election are the ones at the TD, Membership and IT.

 

For the constitution discussion, once your Board gives its feedback so we create a ''final draft'' and is fully in line with all regulations of course and it may be shared with the membership. However, on Magnus' request, let's focus on one thing at a time.

1 hour ago, Martin Werner said:

I tip my hat to you @Magnus Gustafsson for explaining things from "our" side. I agree with @Aleksander Storma above that the VATSCA board is NOT to blame for any of this, and I have full confidence in you as our director.

BUT...

If VATEUD, VATEUR or VATSIM, after reviewing the new constitution several times, during all the changes over the past few years without finding anything wrong, now forces us to change it, or rather invalidate it all together, that should be THEIR problem! This is THEIR head to bear!

If this ridicoulus decision forced upon us to implement a completely unnecessary board position, just because they say so, then me and @Oskar Sunnanhagen will resign from our position, effective immedeatly, in pure protest. I have a feeling that a few others from our fantastic swedish training team will most likely follow. Our current TD already has several deputys, and we shouldn't accept to be forced to appoint something not needed, making our TA positions even less worth...

It's nothing but a disgraceful behaviour, that has seriously hurt my level of engagement and trust in the organizations above us. Not to mention what this must have done to hurt our two excellent candidates. Two people I now am happy to call my friends, @Kristian Kling and @Arvid Hansson

So now I beg of the board of Vatsim Scandinavia to promptly ignore the demands from above, and schedule another meeting to try to find our new TD as soon as possible. If the voting numbers indeed were 6 to 1, I think it shouldn't really be so hard. Afterwards I also strongly encourage the board to amend the constitution so that absolute majority isn't needed in cases like this, so this will never happen again.

I understand that a vACC must adhere to the mother organizations, but enough is enough. This is (and excuse my language) pure bullshit and nothing but a form of supression technique.

Martin, 

First of all I need to make a clarification. Calling a decision ridiculous and by extend directly insulting my fellow colleagues is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. This comes from a supervisory point of view and I am not claiming it because this was directed to staff members but the reaction would be exactly the same for all our members; Period.

The only line we have set is that no voting happens on TD/IT and Membership dept positions, not only in Scandinavia but EUD and VATSIM wide. One of the possible solutions here is to get one of the persons that applied in a deputy position. This is currently discussed at your Board while if a better solution is found will be enforced accordingly.

For the rest I will get back to you in private.

[Martin Stockzell (1294494)]

5 minutes ago, Andreas Dermitzakis said:

First of all I need to make a clarification. Calling a decision ridiculous and by extend directly insulting my fellow colleagues is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. This comes from a supervisory point of view and I am not claiming it because this was directed to staff members but the reaction would be exactly the same for all our members; Period.

The decision IS ridiculous, and the handling of the matter IS disgraceful. So if you find that that opinion validates some sort of supervisory action, please do.

Since "your" side is the one that has dropped the ball in this matter, I in all honesty cant imagine why Vatsim Scandinavia should be the one that suffers.

What _I_ find insulting is that one of the highest member of the Vatsim board (not you or Florian) comes in to our forum, and is extremely vague and, to be honest, quite disinformative and non-helpful in all ways possible.

You might interpret my post as insulting, which it isn't. What it is, is brutally honest. We are being "punished" for something that you guys missed several times. Or acctually, Kristian and Arvid are. The rest of us just gets a taste of why other people dislike Vatsims top down gouverning.

But fine, I have made my objections clear in this case. And I'm 100% positive that they aren't going to change anything. So consider this my last post in this matter.

[Magnus Gustafsson (880543)]

I freeze this thread if you can't keep within CoC regulations! 

No one will quit their position,  before board have path forward! 

As said previous,  do not shoot the messenger! 

Behave,  please 

Magnus 

[Magnus Gustafsson (880543)]

To be totally clear:

"In other words: I am hereby directing the Board of VATSIM Scandinavia to decide who should be ATC Training Director and who should be Deputy. We will respect the outcome of that decision, but there will be no public vote."

There is no options regarding this! This is the next step and nothing else! Founders and BOG have the responsibility when VATSIM Scandinavia board have to make an non-constitutional decision.

Magnus

 

[Mattias Green (1281702)]

Enough is enough.

I've been monitoring this thread and decided to keep my cool and let the board work this out but I can no longer accept the damage this behavior from the BoG and the founders have done to our, once, flourishing VACC. I do not blame the messengers nor do I wish to disrespect any of the BoG or founders even though I feel like they have done that to our community according to CoC A1: "Members should, at all times, be courteous and respectful to one another".
Even though Andreas and Florian have been asked at least five times I have not seen one single post explaining why this matter caught the attention from the highest board. From what I understand these instructions came from the BoG and founders directly and as mentioned before - rules need to be public for everyone. The VATSIM board can't just march in and micromanage decisions whenever they feel like it, especially when our constitution have been reviewed not once - but twice in the last two years. That's showing great disrespect to the whole VATSIM Scandinavia community.

This is a very sad time for VATSIM Scandinavia and will be remembered for a long time. The damage this have done to our community will soon be beyond repair.

I'm hereby officially resigning from all my extra duties within VATSIM Scandinavia and I will inform the relevant people in our staff-team. I will remain as an active ATC and pilot - nothing more.

I will not add anything more to this discussion.

[Wygene Chong]

Everyone, please stay put. We need you  

I have just finished escalating the issue by writing a very long appeal to the BoG. So there will probably be some explanation coming soon. 

Kjære alle sammen. Holder fast, jeg har nettopp skrevet en svært lang brev til BoG. Så noen svar fra «de høyeste» bør kommer snart. 

[Magnus Gustafsson (880543)]

8 hours ago, Wygene Chong said:

Everyone, please stay put. We need you

This is an ideological post!

Generally we do have an good transparency and informative way in the Nordic countries and member of community/country have no problem at all, to gather information and react on it.

The same goes for administration and culture in Vatsim Scandinavia and it has been an ideology of mine to give the members the truth as much as possible as you have the right to know!

With this ideology, I also beg of you to handle the truth in the right way! Discuss with common sense, do not do any drastic decision in the middle of discussion, wait on outcome of the hole process, then evaluate for an even longer time........    That is the common Nordic way to react on ongoing process!

I know of organisations that would have left it with the post in Training Director election thread where Peter Nielsen says " There will be not public vote" and the only response to the community would be " Standby, process is ongoing"!

Please, patience! React in the Nordic way!

To represent the ideology, I demanded in the meeting that information should be given to members of VATSIM Scandinavia, as our members need to know! I also demanded that responsible for this decision will actively communicate and "take the heat from our members". 

Please, do not say "I will quit, here is my resignation", that is not representative of the ideology "members has the right to know, they are mature enough to handle the truth", that I have applied during my time as Director!

Magnus 

[Martin Stockzell (1294494)]

@Andreas Dermitzakis, in hindsight I realize that my post might be taken the wrong way, and if I insulted you or your colleagues personally I apologize. I still think the decision to intervene is strange and/or wrong, and the way it was made was extremely bad, and I find it extremely disrespectful that no one involved in the decision making can explain why this decision was made, or even from which rule or constitution it was based. Those questions MUST be answered, if any credability is to be restored!

And a reply to @Magnus Gustafssons post above; this IS the nordic way to react. We don't just sit quietly when something is handled badly. We demand answers! If something extraordinary is decided, then it must be justified. And if it is, sources to that justification must be presented right away. Otherwise it will be interpreted as some sort of dictatorship, or even tyranny to be extreme. That just doesn't work in one of the most democratic part of the world...

Now I know that a good solution to the acctual TD-situation is near, but that doesn't answer the still unanswered questions asked directly to the persons involved, and the same forementioned persons very indelicate way of presenting the decision. As @Mattias Green pointed out above, the CoC applies even to them... And their behaviour has now caused the swedish training team one of our highest rated mentors... That could have been prevented with straight answers right from the beginning. Again, Vatsim Scandinavia is the victim here, as an organization and as a group of highly motivated, engaged and knowledgeable people.

I said earlier that I wouldn't add anything else to this debate, but I felt that if I had hurt anyone personally I should apologize. So to whomever I might have hurt in the process of getting my questions answered, I apologize.