Live streaming

[Erik Wismen (1297720)]

Hello, recently i saw a few air traffic controllers livestreaming in UK. My question is the following: is it okay to stream as ATC in Vatsim Scandinavia if you don't show the chatbox?  It's a great advertising for the network! 

 

 

[Magnus Gustafsson (880543)]

Yes, it´s ok!

And as you say, not show the chatbox!

The regulations for this and what I interpret this is the regulating text:

http://www.vatsim.net/documents/code-of-conduct

A11§.) Members are prohibited from publishing, posting, distributing, disseminating or using any kind of defamatory, infringing, obscene, vulgar, profane, unlawful or other such types of communications materials or information through the use of online chat boxes, ATC text channels, voice ATC channels or the official internet forums, newsgroups and mailing lists utilized by VATSIM.net and its officially recognized regions, divisions, ARTCCs, ACCs and FIRs. Individuals violating this rule are VATSIM Code of Conduct  subject to the procedures set forth in Article I of the VATSIM.net Code of Regulations which could result in removal from VATSIM and revocation of their certificate number.

A12§.)Members are prohibited from using online chat boxes, ATC text channels, voice ATC channels or the official internet forums, newsgroups and mailing lists utilized by VATSIM.net and its officially recognized regions, divisions, ARTCCs, ACCs and FIRs to threaten, harass, abuse, intimidate or stalk others or to otherwise violate the legal rights of others, including expectations to the rights of privacy and publicity. Individuals violating this rule are subject to the procedures set forth in Article VI of the VATSIM.net Code of Regulations which could result in removal from VATSIM and revocation of their certificate number.

A13§.)VATSIM does not care to engage in the constant policing of its Members. If a problem should arise online between two or more Members which cannot be resolved by the parties in a quick manner or if it affects the enjoyment of VATSIM by other Members or could hinder the operation of the network, the parties involved should check to see if a Supervisor or an Administrator is online to help resolve the matter. If any Members feel that the matter was not adequately resolved by the Supervisor or Administrator, then such member may submit his or her grievance in writing to the Vice President of Conflict Resolution. The decision reached by the Vice President of Conflict Resolution shall be final in all such matters.

Please remember to show us, how you do it!

Magnus 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Magnus Gustafsson

[Sebastian Rekdal (1240094)]

My question is the following: is it okay to stream as ATC in Vatsim Scandinavia if you don't show the chatbox?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but other than what's mentioned in VATSIM Code of Conduct A1, A11, A12 and A13, there are no such rule of not showing the chat box. In conclusion, as far as I know, there is no need to hide the chat box (other than private chats with other members). As you say, Magnus, "otherwise violate the legal rights of others, including expectations to the rights of privacy and publicity", I don't think it's considered to be a violation of the code of conduct to show the Euroscope chat box window and/or Pilot client chat window, as pilots may be TEXT on VATSIM.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sebastian Rekdal

[Magnus Gustafsson (880543)]

Yes, I like to correct you @Sebastian!

I do have the expectation that my conversation with ATC, if I am a pilot is not streamed, I do believe that to be between the ATC and my self as pilot. With the fields that are used in Euroscope, are used both for <frequency text> and <chat>, i can´t see how you can stream <frequency text> (not considered in my evaluation, as that is transmitted to everyone on that frequency) and suddenly hide <chat> that many consider to be personal discussion between two participants!

As I have been Supervisor for several of years (currently not), I know how sensitive these kind of issues are, so let us follow the advise I gave in my first post, please!

Magnus

 

[Sebastian Rekdal (1240094)]

Fair enough, though I strongly disagree with you as the FREQUENCY chat box should be used for phraseology and frequency-related materials only - therefore no violation of privacy is taken place. I do, however, agree with you when speaking about PRIVATE conversations between controllers/pilots - yes, but an official frequency channel, no way!

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sebastian Rekdal

[Arvid Hansson (1162891)]

As a pilot I really couldn't care less about where the frequency log, and the messages I've sent get shown. As Sebastian points out it should only contain proper and relevant RT which should be perfectly fine to display to the public without infringing anyone's privacy - to me this is no different than using a scanner to listen to real frequencies, the scanner here being the broadcasting software allowing access to the frequency.

I've seen countless streamers (including the "big" profiles - some of them SUP rated themselves) stream frequency logs both from pilot and ATC clients without getting shot down by staff. I would, however, be careful and make sure not to publicly broadcast messages considered "private" - e.g. person to person rather than ATCO to Pilot/ATCO (coordination would IMHO be perfectly fine to broadcast as well - many viewers watch streams to learn and seeing what's going on "behind the frequency" would most likely add a dimension to their learning).

My 50 öre anyway

[Sebastian Rekdal (1240094)]

As a pilot I really couldn't care less about where the frequency log, and the messages I've sent get shown. As Sebastian points out it should only contain proper and relevant RT which should be perfectly fine to display to the public without infringing anyone's privacy - to me this is no different than using a scanner to listen to real frequencies, the scanner here being the broadcasting software allowing access to the frequency.

I've seen countless streamers (including the "big" profiles - some of them SUP rated themselves) stream frequency logs both from pilot and ATC clients without getting shot down by staff. I would, however, be careful and make sure not to publicly broadcast messages considered "private" - e.g. person to person rather than ATCO to Pilot/ATCO (coordination would IMHO be perfectly fine to broadcast as well - many viewers watch streams to learn and seeing what's going on "behind the frequency" would most likely add a dimension to their learning).

My 50 öre anyway

+1, pal!

[Mathias Johnsen (839996)]

Hi, I haven't read everything you've written here.

Just wanted to point something out. 
Comments in tag like "NOOB" and stuff like that in scratchpad is NOT acceptable to show to others. Behave 

[Arvid Hansson (1162891)]

Comments in tag like "NOOB" and stuff like that in scratchpad is NOT acceptable to show to others. Behave 

True, albeit not strictly related to the discussion. I think it goes without saying that derogatory comments should be avoided at all times (A1). The pilot with "NOOB" in their scratchpad could have their mate on APP and thus find out anyway, doesn't have to go through a broadcasting platform to have a negative impact.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Arvid Hansson

[Sebastian Rekdal (1240094)]

Hi, I haven't read everything you've written here.

Just wanted to point something out. 
Comments in tag like "NOOB" and stuff like that in scratchpad is NOT acceptable to show to others. Behave 

If a controller is to put "noob" in the scratchpad, that is the ATCOs fault himself and should be kept responsible for that (i.e. CoC A1). As Arvid says, what you're mentioning is not strictly related to this specific discussion, even though I could probably speak on behalf of the entire VATSIM community that we agree with you, Mathias!

The point here is that there are nothing stopping one individual recording and/or streaming an ATC channel, as it's a publicly available channel for everyone who wants to listen in (provided that they are a member of VATSIM, of course). Magnus, on the other hand, says it's not allowed and that we should stick to his 'advise' about NOT doing it. It's not specifically mentioned in the VATSIM Code of Conduct as far as I'm aware of, and your interpretation is rather off course as it does not relate to CoC A1, A11, A12 nor A13(?).

If I've missed something, please enlighten me...

[Magnus Gustafsson (880543)]

 I do, however, agree with you when speaking about PRIVATE conversations between controllers/pilots - yes, but an official frequency channel, no way!

i can´t see how you can stream <frequency text> (not considered in my evaluation, as that is transmitted to everyone on that frequency) and suddenly hide <chat> that many consider to be personal discussion between two participants!

 

What do we argue about?

My position as Director give automatically that what I say is Vatsim Scandinavia decision to each an every issue! What I know of regulations and my own thoughts, I will not change my my mind!

Will I monitor or police the issue? No I will not!

But as I said, I am very interested how @Erik will do it! As I think live streaming would be nice to show!

Magnus

[Sebastian Rekdal (1240094)]

My position as Director give automatically that what I say is Vatsim Scandinavia decision to each an every issue! What I know of regulations and my own thoughts, I will not change my my mind!

@Magnus Gustafsson, I believe new rules have to go through Board? And again - streaming ISN'T against the VATSIM Code of Conduct, and you can't make it illegal within VATSIM Scandinavia(?)

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sebastian Rekdal

[Jouka Ahponen (1239359)]

You are more than welcome to stream your controlling

The two issues people are talking here:

1. Newbie on the text field

i dont see anything disrespectful by putting "Newbie"on the text field. I see that just as an information for the controllers that they should take extra care of the pilot and keep eyes open so they can react fast if something seems to go wrong, so they can guide them back on track. That's the idea of Vatsim being a learning environment. "Newbie" on the text field is there for the same reasons Vatsim encourages new pilots to put "Newbie" on their remarks.

2. Private chats shown on the stream

Vatsim User Agreement 8.3

8.3 In exchange for the grant of membership privileges to VATSIM, a Member hereby agrees that his or her usage statistics may be collected by VATSIM and made available for use by other members and/or VATSIM affiliates. These usage statistics, at all times, remain the property of VATSIM.net. Since VATSIM is a network which makes use of the Internet and an individual Member’s activity and/or use of the network may be seen by other Members and the public [streams for example] in general, Members hereby agree that there is no reasonable expectation to privacy when it comes to their use of the network as a pilot or air traffic controller or to any posts made on VATSIM forums. Neither VATSIM nor its authorized affiliates are obligated to make private any such information.

Code of Conduct 12.

Members are prohibited from using online chat boxes, ATC text channels, voice ATC channels or the official internet forums, newsgroups and mailing lists utilized by VATSIM.net and its officially recognized regions, divisions, ARTCCs, ACCs and FIRs to threaten, harass, abuse, intimidate or stalk others or to otherwise violate the legal rights of others, including expectations to the rights of privacy and publicity. Individuals violating this rule are subject to the procedures set forth in Article VI of the VATSIM.net Code of Regulations which could result in removal from VATSIM and revocation of their certificate number

So, upon registration everyone of us should have read and agreed with the user agreement, which states that users cannot expect any privacy when using the network. Therefore no private stuff should be discussed on the network chats including "private" chat. By sharing private stuff on the chat you break the rights of privacy and but that's not the violation from the streamer as long as he doesn't write and post that private information on the chat himself. Therefore, as the chats aren't private, there is no law or rule in the world stopping you from showing the chat conversations. This said, think twice before you write on those channels. If you have anything private information to share, use another channel such as email or skype.

With this said, I am looking foward to see your streams in the future

Edited September 30, 2015 by Jouka Ahponen

[Mattias Green (1281702)]

1. Newbie on the text field

i dont see anything disrespectful by putting "Newbie"on the text field. I see that just as an information for the controllers that they should take extra care of the pilot and keep eyes open so they can react fast if something seems to go wrong, so they can guide them back on track. That's the idea of Vatsim being a learning environment. "Newbie" on the text field is there for the same reasons Vatsim encourages new pilots to put "Newbie" on their remarks.

+1

Couldn't agree more. It's a great heads-up for me as a controller so I can react accordingly and help the pilot and give him/her more room for errors.

[Mathias Johnsen (839996)]

You are more than welcome to stream your controlling

The two issues people are talking here:

1. Newbie on the text field

i dont see anything disrespectful by putting "Newbie"on the text field. I see that just as an information for the controllers that they should take extra care of the pilot and keep eyes open so they can react fast if something seems to go wrong, so they can guide them back on track. That's the idea of Vatsim being a learning environment. "Newbie" on the text field is there for the same reasons Vatsim encourages new pilots to put "Newbie" on their remarks.

Agree Newbie is a more "warm" word then Noob  Maybe that's all from my days with counerstrike where we used it as a bad word 

[Erik Wismen (1297720)]

I don't have any plans to show the chatbox for the viewers at all, many pilots use voice

[Otto Suhonen]

On 2.10.2015 at 9:08 PM, Erik Wismen said:

I don't have any plans to show the chatbox for the viewers at all, many pilots use voice

Please let us know when you start streaming. At least I would like to watch your streams. Good luck for your streams!

Edited June 15, 2016 by Otto Suhonen

[Arvid Hansson (1162891)]

I might put a stream up if I end up controlling for Worldflight, I'll let you know here later tonight.