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Question of MSAW


Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)
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Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)

Hi,

I got a problem today. When an aircraft descend on ILS, MSAW warning shows also. Is that normal?

1612680394_TE@U_K_VPL9(PDLF(_UJI.png.8854a1c9041c628c800523886a6fbf6d.png

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Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)
2 minutes ago, Bernardo Reis said:

Can you post your TopSkyMSAW.txt file?

P:5:N031.29.00.000:E120.51.41.000:N031.30.21.000:E121.13.16.000:N031.23.44.000:E121.23.27.000:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.15.35.000:E120.52.50.000:1480


P:36:N031.26.23.000:E121.14.21.000:N031.26.19.000:E121.15.08.000:N031.26.09.000:E121.15.52.000:N031.25.52.000:E121.16.34.000:N031.25.30.000:E121.17.12.000:N031.25.02.000:E121.17.45.000:N031.24.29.000:E121.18.11.000:N031.23.53.000:E121.18.30.000:N031.23.15.000:E121.18.42.000:N031.22.35.000:E121.18.46.000:N031.21.56.000:E121.18.42.000:N031.21.18.000:E121.18.30.000:N031.20.42.000:E121.18.11.000:N031.20.09.000:E121.17.44.000:N031.19.41.000:E121.17.12.000:N031.19.19.000:E121.16.34.000:N031.19.02.000:E121.15.52.000:N031.18.52.000:E121.15.07.000:N031.18.48.000:E121.14.21.000:N031.18.52.000:E121.13.36.000:N031.19.02.000:E121.12.51.000:N031.19.19.000:E121.12.09.000:N031.19.41.000:E121.11.31.000:N031.20.09.000:E121.10.59.000:N031.20.42.000:E121.10.32.000:N031.21.18.000:E121.10.13.000:N031.21.56.000:E121.10.01.000:N031.22.35.000:E121.09.57.000:N031.23.15.000:E121.10.01.000:N031.23.53.000:E121.10.13.000:N031.24.29.000:E121.10.32.000:N031.25.02.000:E121.10.58.000:N031.25.30.000:E121.11.31.000:N031.25.52.000:E121.12.09.000:N031.26.09.000:E121.12.51.000:N031.26.19.000:E121.13.35.000:1640


P:4:N031.17.17.000:E121.20.21.000:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.08.21.000:E121.24.41.000:N031.08.08.000:E121.21.06.000:2000


P:5:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.19.37.000:E121.33.24.000:N031.15.27.000:E121.37.31.000:N031.09.07.000:E121.32.15.000:N031.08.21.000:E121.24.41.000:3120


P:9:N031.30.21.000:E121.13.16.000:N031.35.58.000:E121.47.59.000:N031.33.09.000:E122.13.16.000:N031.06.03.000:E122.23.13.000:N030.42.47.000:E122.09.17.000:N030.42.19.000:E120.55.41.000:N031.15.35.000:E120.52.50.000:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.23.44.000:E121.23.27.000:1800


P:8:N032.10.00.000:E120.44.00.000:N031.52.36.000:E121.47.12.000:N031.46.11.000:E122.46.30.000:N031.12.41.000:E122.46.30.000:N030.15.00.000:E122.12.00.000:N030.15.18.000:E121.13.11.000:N030.53.10.000:E120.25.00.000:N031.35.21.000:E120.19.44.000:3000

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Mark-Julius Pikat (1051954)
4 hours ago, Hongye Zhang said:

Hi,

I got a problem today. When an aircraft descend on ILS, MSAW warning shows also. Is that normal?

1612680394_TE@U_K_VPL9(PDLF(_UJI.png.8854a1c9041c628c800523886a6fbf6d.png

Confirm that is EuroScope and not vatSys?

Also, please use code function of the forum so we can see the code properly. You may also add an image from Plugin Status, how the MSAW is defined on the map.

M-J

Edited by Mark-Julius Pikat

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Mark-Julius Pikat
Head of VACC Estonia
mark-julius.pikat [at] estvacc.org

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Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)
19 minutes ago, Mark-Julius Pikat said:

Confirm that is EuroScope and not vatSys?

Also, please use code function of the forum so we can see the code properly. You may also add an image from Plugin Status, how the MSAW is defined on the map.

M-J

that is Euroscope 😂

P:5:N031.29.00.000:E120.51.41.000:N031.30.21.000:E121.13.16.000:N031.23.44.000:E121.23.27.000:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.15.35.000:E120.52.50.000:1480


P:36:N031.26.23.000:E121.14.21.000:N031.26.19.000:E121.15.08.000:N031.26.09.000:E121.15.52.000:N031.25.52.000:E121.16.34.000:N031.25.30.000:E121.17.12.000:N031.25.02.000:E121.17.45.000:N031.24.29.000:E121.18.11.000:N031.23.53.000:E121.18.30.000:N031.23.15.000:E121.18.42.000:N031.22.35.000:E121.18.46.000:N031.21.56.000:E121.18.42.000:N031.21.18.000:E121.18.30.000:N031.20.42.000:E121.18.11.000:N031.20.09.000:E121.17.44.000:N031.19.41.000:E121.17.12.000:N031.19.19.000:E121.16.34.000:N031.19.02.000:E121.15.52.000:N031.18.52.000:E121.15.07.000:N031.18.48.000:E121.14.21.000:N031.18.52.000:E121.13.36.000:N031.19.02.000:E121.12.51.000:N031.19.19.000:E121.12.09.000:N031.19.41.000:E121.11.31.000:N031.20.09.000:E121.10.59.000:N031.20.42.000:E121.10.32.000:N031.21.18.000:E121.10.13.000:N031.21.56.000:E121.10.01.000:N031.22.35.000:E121.09.57.000:N031.23.15.000:E121.10.01.000:N031.23.53.000:E121.10.13.000:N031.24.29.000:E121.10.32.000:N031.25.02.000:E121.10.58.000:N031.25.30.000:E121.11.31.000:N031.25.52.000:E121.12.09.000:N031.26.09.000:E121.12.51.000:N031.26.19.000:E121.13.35.000:1640


P:4:N031.17.17.000:E121.20.21.000:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.08.21.000:E121.24.41.000:N031.08.08.000:E121.21.06.000:2000


P:5:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.19.37.000:E121.33.24.000:N031.15.27.000:E121.37.31.000:N031.09.07.000:E121.32.15.000:N031.08.21.000:E121.24.41.000:3120


P:9:N031.30.21.000:E121.13.16.000:N031.35.58.000:E121.47.59.000:N031.33.09.000:E122.13.16.000:N031.06.03.000:E122.23.13.000:N030.42.47.000:E122.09.17.000:N030.42.19.000:E120.55.41.000:N031.15.35.000:E120.52.50.000:N031.17.30.000:E121.23.57.000:N031.23.44.000:E121.23.27.000:1800


P:8:N032.10.00.000:E120.44.00.000:N031.52.36.000:E121.47.12.000:N031.46.11.000:E122.46.30.000:N031.12.41.000:E122.46.30.000:N030.15.00.000:E122.12.00.000:N030.15.18.000:E121.13.11.000:N030.53.10.000:E120.25.00.000:N031.35.21.000:E120.19.44.000:3000

 

Edited by Hongye Zhang
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Mark-Julius Pikat (1051954)
11 minutes ago, Hongye Zhang said:

that is Euroscope 😂

TopSkyMSAW.txt data

The file is read one line at a time and the first line that contains the aircraft position returns the minimum safe altitude, so put specific small area lines at the top and large general areas to the end of the file. What I can see is that an area with 36 vertices I located pretty much at the top and probably does not allow to read all the other lines.

Can you make a picture of Plugin Status > MSAW View and how does those MSAW actually look like?

M-J

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Mark-Julius Pikat
Head of VACC Estonia
mark-julius.pikat [at] estvacc.org

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Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)
3 minutes ago, Mark-Julius Pikat said:

The file is read one line at a time and the first line that contains the aircraft position returns the minimum safe altitude, so put specific small area lines at the top and large general areas to the end of the file. What I can see is that an area with 36 vertices I located pretty much at the top and probably does not allow to read all the other lines.

Can you make a picture of Plugin Status > MSAW View and how does those MSAW actually look like?

M-J

image.thumb.png.2f4f897a9aa10ccadf4fd1110ac1f79a.png

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Mark-Julius Pikat (1051954)
1 hour ago, Hongye Zhang said:

image.thumb.png.2f4f897a9aa10ccadf4fd1110ac1f79a.png

You need to draw some circle/any other shape around the airport ARP (see the example I've attached) to filter the bigger area:

  • With 0 altitude at radius of 4 NM;
  • Calculate altitude what should be as minimum for radius of 8 NM (I suggest to check the charts).

Other option is to draw an instrument approach safety area, which looks like a tie bow.

Considering that your area is big it will certainly be lower than 1800 ft at some point.

M-J

Screenshot 2021-03-27 at 18.10.52.png

Edited by Mark-Julius Pikat

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Mark-Julius Pikat
Head of VACC Estonia
mark-julius.pikat [at] estvacc.org

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Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)
13 minutes ago, Mark-Julius Pikat said:

You need to draw some circle/any other shape around the airport ARP (see the example I've attached) to filter the bigger area:

  • With 0 altitude at radius of 4 NM;
  • Calculate altitude what should be as minimum for radius of 8 NM (I suggest to check the charts).

Other option is to draw an instrument approach safety area, which looks like a tie bow.

Considering that your area is big it will certainly be lower than 1800 ft at some point.

M-J

Screenshot 2021-03-27 at 18.10.52.png

you mean add a circle with 0 MSAW?

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Mark-Julius Pikat (1051954)
2 minutes ago, Hongye Zhang said:

you mean add a circle with 0 MSAW?

That would be one option, yes. Another option like I said would be to draw an instrument approach safety area to inhibit all the MSAW alerts.

With circles it's a bit easier as you can gradually increase the altitude in case you actually want to see the warning if it's not safe.

M-J

spacer.png

Mark-Julius Pikat
Head of VACC Estonia
mark-julius.pikat [at] estvacc.org

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Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)
5 minutes ago, Mark-Julius Pikat said:

That would be one option, yes. Another option like I said would be to draw an instrument approach safety area to inhibit all the MSAW alerts.

With circles it's a bit easier as you can gradually increase the altitude in case you actually want to see the warning if it's not safe.

M-J

Yeah that is a good idea of second option, but how can i draw an instrument approach safety area same with MSAW? or FINALAPP?

Edited by Hongye Zhang
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Mark-Julius Pikat (1051954)
3 hours ago, Hongye Zhang said:

Yeah that is a good idea of second option, but how can i draw an instrument approach safety area same with MSAW? or FINALAPP?

Try to check if there are published coordinates for those on AIP charts (maybe they are georeferenced to get the coordinates).

FINALAPP is not used in MSAW calculation - this is the setting from TopSkySTCA, used for exclusion of areas with parallel approaches and departures.

M-J

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Mark-Julius Pikat
Head of VACC Estonia
mark-julius.pikat [at] estvacc.org

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Hongye Rudi Zhang (1326158)
29 minutes ago, Mark-Julius Pikat said:

Try to check if there are published coordinates for those on AIP charts (maybe they are georeferenced to get the coordinates).

FINALAPP is not used in MSAW calculation - this is the setting from TopSkySTCA, used for exclusion of areas with parallel approaches and departures.

M-J

Ah I see thanks!

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