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Mats Edvin Aaro

Suggestion for new graphic profile / logo

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I have long thought that VATSCA logo has needed a bit of updating, as the current design is way out of fashion. It has thin lines, text and elements which renders bad onto backgrounds. It's also a very wide format, which can be challenging in different cases.

The new 'era' of graphic profiling is all about minimalism, and the less-is-more principle. I wanted to create a logo which represents the whole VACC, not just 'the triangle'. I wanted it to be recognized with and without the text, and wanted it to be adaptable. So I came up with this suggestion.

5a01cd1375d4a_Skjermbilde2017-11-07kl_15_44_47.thumb.png.af455f85d2c9af3e8bf5e4fb61967f78.png

 

Each corner is naturally one of the hubs in the VACC, drawn in proportion. The logo is bold and easily readable, and can be changed to white if on a dark background. The blue is a cold-ish color, which represent our northern geographical position. 

It's also possible to create country-specific logos for this to represent each FIR – but I'll have to look more into that.

 

All in all, what do you guys think? :)

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Looks very nice and thought through! I completely agree that today's logo needs a modernization. This is a very nice first draft/suggestion.


You say the old logo: "It's also a very wide format, which can be challenging in different cases.", thought I think the suggested logo might be just as challenging format. Perhaps try to make to reduce the blank room by making the icon itself just next to the text, not over it and stretching far out - so the total height of the logo is reduced and space more efficient. It takes a lot of space right now which is quite valuable and makes it hard to put on let's say A4-paper material which is space-limited.

Edited by Daniel Lange

Daniel Lange
Web Services Director

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1 hour ago, Daniel Lange said:

Looks very nice and thought through! I completely agree that today's logo needs a modernization. This is a very nice first draft/suggestion.


You say the old logo: "It's also a very wide format, which can be challenging in different cases.", thought I think the suggested logo might be just as challenging format. Perhaps try to make to reduce the blank room by making the icon itself just next to the text, not over it and stretching far out - so the total height of the logo is reduced and space more efficient. It takes a lot of space right now which is quite valuable and makes it hard to put on let's say A4-paper material which is space-limited.

I don't personally believe the height is a problem here, right now the logo is naturally "boxing in" the text. I want the logo to stand out, not the text - so that the logo can be used independent from the text. Putting it next to the text gives even more whitespace and is IMO very unnatural.. I don't believe putting this on an A4 page is a problem

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According to the constitution, under 4.3.2 all members of Vatsim Scandinavia has the right to

[...] Propose suggestions for change. These should be addressed to the Director or another person in the board, and labeled "formal proposal".

So if this is something you would like I would encourage you to make a formal proposal to the director (@Julius Mannermaa)

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16 minutes ago, Mats Edvin Aaro said:

I don't personally believe the height is a problem here, right now the logo is naturally "boxing in" the text. I want the logo to stand out, not the text - so that the logo can be used independent from the text. Putting it next to the text gives even more whitespace and is IMO very unnatural.. I don't believe putting this on an A4 page is a problem

I think focusing on the logo to be used independent from the text might not be a good idea, because it presupposes people know what the icon represents; and that's usually done with major brands like Nike and Apple for example, because everyone knows what the "swoosj" and apple represents. Of course we need to think about having a icon seperate from the text anyway, for example for tab-icons at the browser or shortcuts on your desktop, but that should not be the main logo. The main logo should have both a icon and text explaining what it is, such as "Vatsim Scandinavia"

Since you say putting it next to the text gives it even more whitespace, I think you may misunderstood what I tried to point out. Here's a quick draft of what I ment:

draft.jpg.666f312998f8f365e2dae3c66854bf76.jpg

Now I totally agree this does not look good, but I think you get my thought and point that it takes less whitespace. Perhaps play around with different placements of the logo, I think it can be at least a notch smaller than you propose currently.

An example of strict spacing is the QR sheet I'm working on, it's a lot of information that needs to go into pretty small space of a A4 sheet. Underneath you see your currently purposed logo is quite lot higher and less wide, so in order to make it a alright readable size, I had to size it up in proportions, and this creates a lot of height I can't fit in the sheet for example. Here at forums it would for example make the header/navigation quite more taller as well, creating more whitespace there.

5a021be27ccee_2017-11-0721_41_41-ENGMQR-Word.thumb.png.68c2c84d99101cb208afb54e9ae79cff.png

5a021be5b8883_2017-11-0721_43_19-ENGMQR-Word.thumb.png.e1df0145d0a4911b4f509cff228989c6.png

 

In case it's unclear: I'm not saying your design is bad, it is very clean, nice and well thought! I'm just trying to en-light points of view that I think are important to be discussed, and to contribute to a constructive discussion. It's important we do this if we're going to do a process of creating a new logo :)


Daniel Lange
Web Services Director

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Sorry for beeing sceptic.

The design is great! But I think it might be "too" similar to Navigraph logo.
I don't say we shouldnt be considering this, just that it should be discussed if it can be related to a ripoff? Would be bad if we were hit by a copyright claim.

/Peter

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1 minute ago, Peter Persson said:

Sorry for beeing sceptic.

The design is great! But I think it might be "too" similar to Navigraph logo.
I don't say we shouldnt be considering this, just that it should be discussed if it can be related to a ripoff? Would be bad if we were hit by a copyright claim.

/Peter

Sorry Peter, but I really can’t seem how the Navigraph logo is similar.. The Navigraph logo is a compass star, this isn’t anything similar to a star.. but if it’s copyright you’re worried about – there’s no need. :) We have justified the design already with the hubs (I’ll show you tomorrow), and it’s not like Navigraph has trademarked a compass star! But on the other side they are both simple logos, I’ll look more into what you’re saying tomorrow though..

But thank you!

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8 minutes ago, Mats Edvin Aaro said:

Hmm, interesting @Daniel Lange! I honestly hadn’t thought it would look that good in the smaller version, guess it takes a bit of getting used to! :P Could you make a mockup of the QR sheet with your revised logo for reference?

Yeah here you go :) 

5a022ec66ff71_2017-11-0723_06_45-ENGMQR-Word.thumb.png.6df18a917e683081c2d9a1403b6c5203.png


Daniel Lange
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Should be made in more than one format to accept the different formats that are used.

For example:
A lite/squared version for discord
A long (wide) version for things such as QR sheets
A standard version for places that supports everything
 

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Exactly, @Adrian Bjerke! That's one of the reasons this design is good – it's so adaptable. With the old logo, you had to downscale it tremendously for it to not take so much width, which made it unreadable. 

While I said the logo could be by itself, I didn't mean that it should be. But for things as discord icons, it could be a good idea. 

I'll get to working more on it now!

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Update! 

I saw @Daniel Lange's note about not using the space good enough, leaving a lot of whitespace. What I did is simply switch the positions of the text and logo (doesn't have to be hard!)

I have also made some suggestions for the FIR specific logos. :) Let me know what you think! (special thanks to Finland for having a white flag, forcing me to put borders on all of them :( )

5a02d9032783d_Skjermbilde2017-11-08kl_11_13_56.thumb.png.fd349c87d43e75a2dc5c6ba500470fe7.png

I also noticed that I had tampered with the location of Iceland in the logo, so I fixed that. The logo is a bit more pointy now, but that doesn't make any difference with the new setup, it only boxes in the text better. :D

 

Also; here's a proof that it actually represents the hubs.

5a02d936304da_Skjermbilde2017-11-08kl_10_58_11.thumb.png.3a3f3d900cb31f2267ecf44a970d2095.png

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First off: The idea that the logo is similar to the Navigraph logo is fairly subjective. The logo itself is abstract to some extent, and one can either see it as it is probably meant, a compass fitting all the Scandinavian countries, or as a paper plane or whatever. However, I don't think we will get in trouble with Navigraph for using this logo. If that was the case, Microsoft would get in trouble with Navigraph for their WordArt of a compass, which is way more similar to Navigraph's logo than the initial draft here.

Second off: I elected to use the word "draft" about this "suggestion" in the last paragraph. I don't see this as a final suggestion to Board whatsoever. This is a public brainstorming process to end up with the best draft for a suggestion in the end, before actually submitting the suggestion for Board. Obviously suggestions shall not be presented in such a manner, on the public forums, that'd be unprofessional and would attack Board's integrity as an organisational organ.

However, Board may take this positively. With such posts being made on the forums, Board may prepare for having to process such suggestions, without suddenly getting a suggestion in their laps, with no warning. Our graphical profile is way outdated, and we need a way to attract new members and to appear professional in all of VATSIM's branches.

And again, this is merely a brainstorming process. Public brainstorming processes are the best way of figuring out what's best in the end, as well as what's the most popular in a community. I would encourage all members: normal mebers; staff; or board, to participate in this process with their thoughts.

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12 hours ago, Peter Persson said:

Sorry for beeing sceptic.

The design is great! But I think it might be "too" similar to Navigraph logo.
I don't say we shouldnt be considering this, just that it should be discussed if it can be related to a ripoff? Would be bad if we were hit by a copyright claim.

/Peter

Don't see the resemblence to Navigraph too much.

If anything, it might resemble Jeppesen's logo. Even if that one is three layers.

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Also, May I suggest, @Mats Edvin Aaro , that for your thought FIR logos, that you either don't include "Norway FIR", "Sweden FIR" etc, or don't include the "VATSIM Scandinavia" as it is too much text in there for my taste, as well as some proportion in there that grinds my gears. Probably replacing the "VATSIM Scandinavia" text with the "Norway FIR", "Sweden FIR" etc is best as it is something that is going to be used more-or-less internally in VATSIM Scandinavia, so we all know which vACC it represents.


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1 hour ago, Mats Edvin Aaro said:

Update! 

(lot of text and images)

This is a lot better indeed! As @Adrian Bjerke mentioned about having different versions of the logo, I think that's also very normal and standard to have. So the suggestion you posted now is the square-version. So now we at least need one long (wide) and maybe icon-only square :)

I really like the FIR logos, they look nice! I also agree that it might become a bit too much text. What you can do is maybe write same styled as now, but:

SCANDINAVIA
NORWAY FIR

Maybe consider if we even have to add the text there at all? And just keep "VATSIM Scandinavia"? Do we need to explicitly say which country/fir it is? What kind of marketing material do we imagine FIR-specific logos to be used, instead of global Scandinavia logo? Do we need FIR-specific logos? New enlightments for discussions ;) 

@Navigraph: I totally agree this does not conflict with Navigraph in any way, I also see this as more of a paper plane than a compass.


Daniel Lange
Web Services Director

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I'm cautiously positive to a brand new graphic profile. Remember, it's not just the logo that will have to change.

Every document ever produced needs to be updated. And so forth.

 

The good news is, if this should move forward to an formal proposal (perhaps with more suggestions for members to vote on?) it should be a good opportunity to create a official graphical profile that can easily be merged into word documents, power point presentations, official documentation and so on.

So just keep that in mind :)

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5 minutes ago, Martin Stockzell said:

I'm cautiously positive to a brand new graphic profile. Remember, it's not just the logo that will have to change.

Every document ever produced needs to be updated. And so forth.

 

The good news is, if this should move forward to an formal proposal (perhaps with more suggestions for members to vote on?) it should be a good opportunity to create a official graphical profile that can easily be merged into word documents, power point presentations, official documentation and so on.

So just keep that in mind :)

Yes, I have thought about that myself. It will have to be a rebranding campaign for all new documents, presentations etc. I have also thought about the idea of making a complete branding guide, but we'll see if that's necessary. 

My thoughts are that we should settle for a logo before we start working on the graphic profile. But yes, I'm very much aware that this isn't just about the logo on the website. :P It would in that case be a gradual change as well. 

We'll see where it goes!

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Just a couple of minor points:

1. Saying that the current triangle logo is not representing the whole VACC presumes that the symbol somehow is supposed to point its edges to three hubs/countries. I have always understood that the logo represents a reporting point/waypoint/fix or radar blip.

2. Having created many many documents for VACCSCA over the years I have already been through at least one update of our logo and several updates of our graphical standards, and I can tell you that when working with tens or even hundreds of different documents it creates a lot of extra work to update the documents to the new standards. We still have documents with the old logo so expect it to take years before everything is up to date.

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